>>> [!note] Migrated issue <!-- Drupal.org comment --> <!-- Migrated from issue #3315317. --> Reported by: [jurgenhaas](https://www.drupal.org/user/168924) >>> <h2>0&#65039;&#8419; Who is here today? Comment in the thread below to introduce yourself! We&rsquo;ll keep the meeting open for 24 hours to allow for all time zones.</h2> <table> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>J&uuml;rgen from the Konstanz area, ECA maintainer.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>Christian from munich &#128578;</td> </tr> <tr> <td>rkoller</td> <td>:wave:</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Daniel Speicher</td> <td>Daniel from Konstanz Area, ECA maintainer</td> </tr> </table> <h2>1&#65039;&#8419; Do you have any topics to propose for the meeting today? Post in this thread and we&rsquo;ll open threads for them as appropriate. Or you can post them directly in the channel with the next number as an icon. That topic will then turn into a thread for the comments.</h2> <table> <tr> <td>rkoller</td> <td>let&rsquo;s revisit the scenarios suitable for user tests topics please (thought it was the last one but the it was in the one before ^^ time flies. <a href="https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C0287U62CSG/p1663169049832079">https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C0287U62CSG/p1663169049832079</a>)&nbsp;(edited)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>rkoller</td> <td>or shall i directly open the thread?</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Done :wink:</td> </tr> </table> <h2>2&#65039;&#8419; User tests</h2> <table> <tr> <td>rkoller</td> <td>you&rsquo;ve mentioned during a previous meeting there would be a clear pattern of issues people come up with support question.Good list. And for item 3, there is a clear pattern of questions that come up in support issues in d.o - I can provide you with a list of topics that likely most people should find interesting, I guess.are you able to name 2 or 3 from the top of your head? then i would finish the draft for the user test tasks and could start looking for volunteers after the draft is signed off by everyone in here.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Yes, by looking into the issue queue, there are the following topics that have been asked more than once:loops: how to work with a dynamically generated list of entities and do something for each of them, i.e. working with viewsdates and timestamps: how to convert between themsending emails to a number of usersuser roles: do something if a user has a role, or for all users with a role, react when role gets added or removedI think those are the most popular ones to date</td> </tr> <tr> <td>rkoller</td> <td>thanks! will write up the tasks and post the draft for discussion in the next few days</td> </tr> <tr> <td>boinkster</td> <td>I'll add as a user: how to use/load tokens from both the current entity and pulling in other entities.</td> </tr> </table> <h2>3&#65039;&#8419; User Interface</h2> <table> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>I am relatively new to the project and i am not really sure where to start with finding a chance to contribute concerning e.g. UI topics.Actually i imagined to work on the UI, but i get the feeling that concerns only issue related to bpmn.io (so upstream - as stated ) itself and not something like enhancing user experience on a design level (on the drupal side) - or lets say something like a custom theme for bpmn.io&nbsp; - or am i completely wrong with that?&nbsp;(edited)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>The design in itself is in fact completely controlled by the upstream bpmn.io - they do have parameters and "themes" and there might be a chance to have a look, if we could improve the look and feel by applying some configurations in the webpack, that is part of the bpmn_io module. I don't know what the possibilities are, that requires some research upstream to see, what's available and what makes sense to be adopted in the Drupal module.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Another area with the UI, but not design wise, are missing functions like copy &amp; paste, etc. We know, those functions are provided by bpmn.io but we haven't enabled them yet. However, they would provide a great deal of UX improvement for Drupal users and we need to find out, how to enable them. Again, this would then be done in the webpack in our Drupal module as well.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Is either of that something that would be interesting to you?</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>So there is indeed more to the Drupal-Module concerning bpmn.io possibilities on a configuration level if i get that right?</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Configuration of the webpack, not configuration in terms of a settings form in Drupal.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>I spotted things like <a href="https://github.com/bpmn-io/bpmn-js-nyan">https://github.com/bpmn-io/bpmn-js-nyan</a>(which is just a pretty example, though &#128578; ) there are possibilities to create custom elements which looks pretty promising when dealing with a specific platform like or in the context of drupal&nbsp;(edited)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Yes, exactly. Not sure though, how event, condition, gateway and action would look different in Drupal then elsewhere, but I might be missing something.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>Just take things like cron</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>The webpack we're building and delivering as part of our Drupal module is controlled by this file: web/modules/contrib/bpmn_io/build/webpack.config.js, so that's the place where changes can be made.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>making a cron visually appear as something like a clock or timer for example is pretty straight forward compared to things like a square or circle&nbsp;(edited)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Just take things like cronOh, I see. That starts to make sense. Technically, we have just one element which is an event, and to make that a cron event, a template gets assigned. Not sure, if different templates allow for different rendering of the events then. But if it were, that sounds like a big improvement.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>or the content/entity type that is resembled - talking about the basic standards here</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>And not to forget: one benefit of a standard like BPMN is, that everybody who knows that standard, knows immediately what the circle and the squares mean, they are events and actions. So, people without Drupal knowledge understand what those symbols mean. But maybe it's possible to combine both aspects such that BPMN "semantic" remains in tact, but extra symbols help other to get better orientation more quickly.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>Things like if its an action on a specific entity type, Views, etc&nbsp;(edited)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>I can imagine that things get hard to track for bigger configurations visually - i remember the rules system which got pretty confusing sometimes with more complex rulesets&nbsp;(edited)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Talking about being complex ...</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>Concerning the Standard: Yes concerning the basic UML shapes, but from what i see from the examples, things can only really be identified by labels, not by symbols &hellip;</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>This is one model that does really fancy stuff. But we find it very easy to review and understand what each of those actions does under which circumstances. More symbols would not necessarily help in this case.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>things can only really be identified by labels, not by symbols &hellip;Good point</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>so the standard in the above example is actually only the nodes and knots, not the type, target or module concerning drupal</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>and you need to know what the labels &ldquo;mean&rdquo;, too on first sight</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Yes, but we have e.g. lots of people in the client company who work with these models. They don't know anything about Drupal, content types, crons, or anything. But with the right labels, they can read the models and make a decision, whether they are doing the right thing. That of course requires to use meaningful labels, that's true</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>Lets take the simplest example from <a href="https://ecaguide.org/library/test%20models/views/">https://ecaguide.org/library/test%20models/views/</a></td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>I would call them minimalistic labels :wink:</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>But still, I'd say everyone can read that model and knows what it does, or not?</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>From the ECA Example:Msg could be a system message, a watchdog - how can i spot what this message is?</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>without getting into the options - just thinking - maybe its an unnecessary thought of course</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>True, a proper label for that action would be "Display msg to user"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>as it could also be a system message, yes</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>maybe this leads to something else: Labeling in a human readable way depending which components are affected here</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>System message? A log message, but that's just a terminology</td> </tr> <tr> <td>rkoller</td> <td>Labeling in a human readable way depending which components are affected herewhat you mean exactly by that? the context?</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>by system message i mean a non visible message, something like log or trigger message</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>The beauty is, each company can use the terminology they are used to in labels. Message may mean very different things to different companies.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>So this excludes a Drupal-specific view?</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>If i use it from a more technical perspective i mean</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Not necessarily. I'm just challenging the idea that additional symbols would always be an improvement. I can see users who would be against that. But of course, many would like it, I'm sure.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>So, if even possible to customize the look and feel, we may have to make it optional.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>Yes. If i would use it as a developer or sitebuilder in the drupal context, i would find it hard to spot things as i am in a specific terminology</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>But than of course i could label it myself, but a &ldquo;human readable&rdquo; labeling that is automatic would be nice , then</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>Something simple like:Views: List Users</td> </tr> <tr> <td>rkoller</td> <td>hmm on second thought i sort of agree with @snabel . it hasnt to be symbols. it could be also tried to be communicated differently. but to only to rely on the label and reading increases the cognitive load. that is a topic we discussed in one of the a11y office hours meeting two or three weeks ago. for example the header of the drupal admin. you have to rely completely onto reading to process the content. there arent additional visual queues if you are for example in the &ldquo;structure&rdquo; section or the configuration section and so forth. you have to read. and same applies to a model. you have a visual representation of the model but its elements are uniform and you have to read each label.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>or User Context: Switch User</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Well, that label is already there. When you click on an action, the property panel shows exactly that already</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>yes , in the properties</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>in the example above it would require clicking every single item</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Exactly. if you want to set the label in the canvas to the template name by default, that would be a feature that could be developed.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>But every user always needs the chance to overwrite labels to what ever they think is most appropriate to them</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>So if its default, its there with the context, if the user decides to change it, go for it</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>or is there already some inital automatic labeling?&nbsp;(edited)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Not yet, but I think there should be an issue about that somewhere. I recall that we had discussed something like that before.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Technically, I'd prefer that to be implemented in bpmn.io upstream through, because this is fully under their control. So something like "If label is empty and a new template gets assigned, then fill the label of the element with the tamplete label."</td> </tr> <tr> <td>snable</td> <td>Maybe we can recall the issue if there is any interest.I need to leave for now, thanks for the active discussion!&nbsp;(edited)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>jurgenhaas</td> <td>Thank you too, I'd love to see what comes out of this.</td> </tr> </table>